Marcus, thanks for your #7 in your reply

7) Our ticket system did not enforce cut off dates for support until last month. This was by design. It was our goal to provide support for more than 1 year for free if possible because we do value our customers, we want our software to be great, and we absolutely want to make sure customers are happy with our products. Last month we had to change the ticket system to enforce support time limits because the volume was getting so large that it was negatively impacting response times for paying customers.

I'll take that as an apology for your previous post.

Rick

Rick,

No apology was meant. Just because we gave you support beyond what you were entitled to is no excuse for lambasting us on response times.

I do think a wiki would be the perfect thing to take some of the heat off of BV with regards to the manual and general support issues. Put the manual in a wiki, let anyone in the community edit, add, and update as needed.

I've never used a wiki built in .Net, so I can't make an app suggestion. MediaWiki is the most popular (think Wikipedia), and there are popular hosted wiki services available like Stikipad (performance is rough) and PBWiki (might be a good solution).

You have time to build one into the new DotNetBB, right? :)

GraffitiCMS doesn't have a wiki that I've seen. Would be a good plugin for it, though.

Hey Cliff, they just don't make movies like that anymore do they :-)...glad to see you're hanging in, but if you do land in the water "...just keep swimming..." (Finding Nemo) at least until you can scramble back on board...an offdeck excursion doesn't always have to end tragically.

One of the reasons I often read these forums is that I'm the "Marcus" of an small software company. Personally I don't cut code but do have primary responsibility for application design, business strategy, marketing etc. We have 2 lines of business, consulting to large corporates ($250M - $1B t/o) and an ISV operation. My passion lies with the latter serving SMBs like most of BV's clients & on this front we have a long way to go.

So whats the point? Well, I know how tough it can be...we've had our share of success & failure and I could fill a blog or 2 with war stories.

First, you have to survive in order to thrive. Software solutions are unique in that they are largely intangible products whose overall performance is dependant upon many external factors in the hands of often unqualified consumers. Immature companies (small software vendors), even those with sound intentions of providing great value offerings and excellent customer service really struggle with financial constraints, technical risks associated with R&D, personnel issues and juggling short term tactical imperatives that usually conflict with longer term strategic objectives.

That said, software vendors are ultimately judged in the market place by the quality & consistency of their long term performance and ability to build a credible reputation within their existing & prospective client base...sympathy votes aren't worth much at the end of the day...vendors either deliver or die.

I don't profess to have all the answers by any stretch of the imagination but I've had long term experience with several major vendors as both a customer and partner and been fortunate enough to have met some key industry leaders at Intuit & Microsoft amongst others and here are some conclusions I've come to along the way.

Vendors:

<UL>
* promise less &amp; deliver more...less "features", more reliability...focus on the basics.

* manage client expectations...be clear &amp; consistent with messaging.

* advertise what works...so that it "works as advertised".

* one size fits all support doesn't work.

* good documentation is very cost effective.

* be ethical...instill a customer centric culture within the organisation.

* recognise mistakes, 'fess up and deal with them quickly.

* work closely with key partners on testing
</UL>
Customers:

<UL>
* be realistic in your expectations. "...you can't always get what you want, but if you try..."

* understand that no software is perfect or bug free.

* avoid customized solutions if possible...stay close to OOTB functionality...use supplementary addins if necessary.

* use vendor prefered or qualified partners

* test your own setup vigorously before going live...minimise risk

* if you want a good long term relationship with a supplier, praise publically and complain privately.

* vote with your feet...if a vendor fails to reasonably deliver...don't beat your head against the wall, move on quickly &amp; let Karma do the rest.
</UL>
So, getting back to the original line of this thread...how does BV rate on support and how can we all benefit by an improvement?

This is just a personal opinion (obviously) but I do think support could be improved.

<UL>
* Documentation is not as good as it should be, but some customers don't even try to go through a learning curve, they expect instant results.

* This forum is a key asset only because of the contributions of a few (you know who you are)...lets not underestimate its value.

* I'm not a fan of wikis if they are open to any &amp; all unqualified contributors without some form of QA.

* Not using one of the few recommended hosts (e.g. Resposio) is insane and compounds the whole support issue for all parties.

* SPs and support relating to bugs with core functionality should be "free", the upfront license cost should be whatever is required to cover this.

* All other ongoing official support should be on a user pays basis offered via the ticketing system and include free major version upgrades. (I'm not sure the current plan has the balance right in terms of upfront cost and monthly fees).

* Support for custom solutions should be charged for as a consulting exercise at rates reflecting the relative cost and low reusability of outputs.
</UL>
Whoa, this is much longer than I intended, so here is the nutshell...BV support is not "perfect" and can be improved but is above the standard I feel is necessary when considering which platform to deploy as a merchant's ecommerce solution. The big picture...these guys are way better than many of the alternatives out there within their price category AND most of all, their attitutude &amp; culture is right minded, driven from Marcus down as evidenced by his openess in this forum and willingness to respond to emails directly (albeit not fast enough for some..but I can identify with the whole volume thing here).

A final point...if you want to succeed, get a good host...focus on your business and remember that the upfront cost of BV and the cost of hosting are all insignificant in the overall scheme of things.

Excellent post. Can you expand on the quoted point a bit?


Should service packs include new functionality, similar to say Quicken? [There is a new version of Quicken each year, and there is a charge to upgrade. If you choose not to upgrade, you will continue to receive service packs (they just call them updates) for you your original version until the version is retired. The updates are frequent during the first year (perhaps 3-4), but dwindle over time. The updates typically do not add new features and do not "fix" external dependencies such as tax code changes or banks that change interfaces.]



How would you handle external dependencies in BVC5? BVC5 integrates with something like 20 payment processors and 3 shipping companies. If one of those companies changes something in their API that requires a change in BVC5, should that change be included for "free"? For how long? The reason I ask how long is that on another forum I frequent, one of the most active sections is for a product that has not been sold since 1998.



The credit card industry will soon require specific features in ecommerce software. It seems likely that the requirements will change over time. Should BVC5 deliver those features for "free"? For how long?



By, "SPs and support relating to bugs", do you mean support relating to bugs in the latest service pack or all service packs? Would you place any limits on which bugs will be fixed, such as minimum release?



With a product as large as BVC5, it can take several hours to determine if something is a bug in the software or a "bug" in the environment (debugging the bug). Who should pay for that time? Should every customer pay a little more in the "upfront license cost" or would you charge the customer that reported a "bug", but ended up needing a consult? If you would charge every customer a little more upfront, is that fair? That approach seems open to abuse by the few, driving up the cost for all. I think the manufacturer has an obligation to manage the costs to minimize them for the majority of customers. We've heard from several people on this thread that have used BV support only once, twice, and never; even though support was free until a month ago. We've also read that BV receives over 200 support requests each day. So clearly someone is using support quite a lot. I suspect it is a minority of customers. I fall into the once or twice category and I don't want to pay an increased cost upfront to cover "whatever is required" to support the few.



I'm sure there are many ways to manage the costs. One way is to charge a fairly large fee to report a bug (large enough to cover the average debugging cost for example). If it turns out to be a real bug, the fee could be returned. Microsoft does this with their PSS organization. Or the submission fee could be low ($10 or $15) and never returned. My doctor does this ($15 copay).

Hi Andy,

I welcome your "...don't think this is the way to go". Its all about constructive discussion to find a better outcome or solution...and I'm hoping to learn some from these discussions.

To clarify my thoughts, one's perspective on the best support structure definitely depends on your own capabilities, obviously you are largely self sufficient on things technical but the average client wouldn't be so...that's what I meant by "one size doesn't fit all". I agree that what works for large vendors (ie: mature) doesn't readily translate to being practical for small vendors...scale is a factor, hence small vendors have a major challenge in crossing the chasm so to speak. That said, unless they really care about their clients, they'll never get there even if they achieve some degree of commercial success in the medium term by luck or good timing or whatever. I think BV does care and will get there. As you suggest below, small companies often "strive for continous improvement"...that is they can be agile and innovative but unless they can strike the right balance and ensure commercial viablity they disappear and everyone loses out.

To answer some of your questions:

<UL>
* SPs should not include new functionality unless all major bugs known to date are resolved. This facilitates regression testing as well.

* If possible, I'd reduce the number of external dependancies. We have to manage 2 major target systems across at least 2 countries and use at least 2 core technologies that are not always in synch along with SDKs that are sometimes lacking. It can be a tough call, but I still think "less is more". I really sympathise with the challenge an ecommerce vendor has dealing with all those payment processors...hence my suggestion to cull the list and have a better chance of staying on top of it.

* I mean support relating to the latest SP. Most Tier 1 vendors will always insist that you are the current SP before they spend much effort on a support case.

* In terms of fairness, support is a little like insurance...at the individual level, the premium is never correct, but over the whole client base it should be aligned to balance the costs against the service delivery.

* As for changing environments and CC company requirements...I'd only provide them for free only customers on current maintenance. They are of an ongoing and unpredictable nature and ongoing compatability becomes economically unviable for old versions...so ironically, sunsetting is actually in the client's interest in terms of minimizing costs for the majority of clients over time.
</UL>
Here's what I am planning to do (subject to review) going forward for our business:

<UL>
* Sell a perpetual license for a fee that includes first year email support via a ticket system to cover core support.

* SPs released in that year will be "free" in that there will be no additional charge.

* Charge 25% per annum for ongoing access to maintenance releases (ie SPs) AND new editions (eg: from BVC5 to BVC 6)

* Core support covers receiving of bug reports with no gaurantee of resolution prior to the next SP.

* Core support covers installation and basic configuration and getting up &amp; running.

* Core support will be reliant upon adequate documentation...this is in our interest as well as the clients.

* Bugs will be internally classified as major / minor and prioritised accordingly.

* SPs will typically not include any new functionality but will focus on fixing bugs where a bug is defined as "...not working as advertised" or not as we intended.

* We will need to maintain compatability with other vendors solutions and in our situation as an addon vendor, this is an annual occurance, so clients not on current maintenance will eventually run into compatability issues.

* "How to or how do I do this?" will be provided free via whitepapers and forum style content accessible only to supported customers. Community / peer support will be encouraged and rewarded in some form. (Maybe along the lines of best post per month gets an Amazon voucher and due recognition etc.)

* Non standard or customised implementations of our solution will not be covered by core suppoprt but will be made addressable on a $/hr basis with a minimum charge.
</UL>
But at the end of the day, I'll break the rules if I think we've stuffed up or a client is really in the proverbial through no real fault of their own...so if that means a lot of phone support and hand holding then so be it... but it'll be a judgement call on my part &amp; I hope I get it right more often than not.



Gotta go, it's late in my part of the world.

Cheers

On a Wiki... I'm all for it, but it's got to be moderated, or at least refereed. I can see major pissing contests erupting.

It should be set up for export to paper, PDF?, for those chapters that will end up being 20+ pages.

How will SP2 info be saved as SP3,4,5 instructions are entered? Not everyone is current.

I don't know if this is considered off topic or not, but our inside sales manager attended SxSW and talked to the people at the Zappos booth. I only bring this up here, because Zappos was mentioned earlier in this thread.

Anyway, our sales mgr was highly impressed with their approach to doing business. We have a meeting planned this week to discuss the differences between our business and Zappo's business model and how we can apply some of their techniques to our business.

One thing that comes to my mind is that it would be nice if the BV store had a report to let you know what your repeat customer stats are. Maybe something I should post over in the section of the forum where we can suggest new features.

I'm know I'm late to the discussion here, and I haven't had to use support very often, but the few times I have used support, I always got a response the same day or next day. If my memory is correct, my support requests were generally what I thought were probably simple, quick questions. But I also do not need a lot of hand-holding.

Of course, I'm the type of person who doesn't like to ask for help, unless I absolutely have no other choice. I use other resources, mostly this forum, to find what I need. I think too many people too often jump to opening a support ticket right away for help, when many times, they could probably find their answers in the forums or in the documentation.

And my experience with BVCommerce has been FAR superior than my experience with their competitors. Of course there's always room for improvement, but things could be a lot worse. I also appreciate the fact that BV staff monitor and reply in the forums -- so they stay in touch with customer feedback more readily. Not doing so would certainly lead to the company's downfall.

The one thing that I would like to see is an actual knowledge base (I believe one exists for BV2004 -- but not BV5). The forums are essentially a knowledge base, but I would like to see formal/official answers to some of the more common issues. Also, I would like to see improvements on the documentation (including PDF version).

Anyone who is considering purchasing BVCommerce -- DO IT. It was a good value when the developer's license was $1,500. Now that it's $500 -- it's a STEAL. But, if you're not a developer, or you think you're someone who might need a bit more hand-holding than others who actually do this for a living, then my recommendation would be to either find a host that knows BVCommerce, or hire yourself a developer who has BV experience to consult with you and guide you through the process.

I think it's unreasonable to expect that the support staff be your personal on-call, respond-immediately, consultants.