Rank: Member
Joined: 2/21/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,113
|
Marcus -- I truly understand your going to this Maintenance plan and it make sense. I do, however, think it sort of "violates" the terms of purchase of BV5 when we made that purchase and would more agree that such a maintenance plan would be more fair if it were intitiated with BV6. But it does raise a couple of questions for me:
1. You say after May 12 we will no longer be able to get updates and hot fixes. Will the 5.5 patch still be available in our account? I have not upgraded yet and have been waiting to do so for certain reasons.
2. You say that purchasing the Maintenance Plan entitles you to a free upgrade to Version 6 when it arrives. This would be the biggest reason to get the plan - but it does raise two sub-questions:
A. How certain are we that there will ever be a BV6?
B. Can I merely purchase the Maintenance Plan 2 weeks before you plan to release BV6 an still receive the benefit?
3. As a merchant I think you need more of an incentive to purchase the plan right now. Simply having a "double vote" on features really means very little as I'm sure that the majority of purchasers of the plan initially will be the developers -- firstly becuase they will need to in order to be able to upgrade their clients, and secondly because it is less of a cost to them if they have multiple stores. So in that respect the "majority" of votes will be from a developer standpoint and what makes sense to them, not necessarily what might be more functional to an end merchant or their customers. I have had a "beef" for years with all e-commerce vendors catering more to developers than to end merchants and I really don't see that changing.
All that said, I don't see value in purchasing the plan until: A) BV6 is due to come out; or B) I run into a major problem that requires an update or hot fix. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Member
Joined: 11/5/2003(UTC)
Posts: 1,786
|
Joe,
Thanks for the feedback.
1) After May 12th, you will not have access to any service packs (5.5 included) unless you are on the maintenance plan. If you choose not to go on the plan and want 5.5 you need to download it before the 12th.
2) BV Commerce 6 is under development at the moment. It has been for about 8 months now. It is all c# and based on ASP.NET MVC. It will be released sometime in 2010. The price of BV Commerce 6 will be more than the current price of BV Commerce 5 so the maintenance plan will be the absolute cheapest way to get BV 6.
2b) If you do not purchase the maintenance plan by May 12th, you will only be able to purchase it with new BV Commerce licenses. You will not be able to purchase it two weeks before the release of a new version or service pack without also purchasing a new store license.
3) One major reason (other than BV 6 upgrades in the future) to get the maintenance plan is PCI Compliance. We're starting the certification paperwork in about 6 weeks and unless you are on the maintenance plan you will not be able to get the PCI compliant version (when available) without purchasing a whole new store license. Also, UPS, PayPal, FedEx and the other services that you may use now are updated 2 to 3 times per year. Without the maintenance plan these features may stop working for your store in the future.
I can understand why you feel that the maintenance plan "violates" the terms of purchase of BV5. It has been a tradition, but not guarantee, that service packs were free. When I started with BV Commerce 1 and 2, service packs did not add new features at all. By BVC 2004 service packs had grown into feature updates as well as bug fixes and with BV5 they often entail significant updates to ensure compatibility with outside services.
I didn't want to start charging for maintenance, especially given the current economic climate, but all of my major competitors are now charging a fee and without it BV will not be able to provide on going service packs and PCI Compliance.
I actually hate PCI Compliance. I think it's a scam that has been forced down our throats by Visa and MasterCard. Unfortunately, by the end of this year just about everyone has to get certified or start facing higher transaction fees and account cancellations. I honestly don't think it will do a thing to reduce fraudulent charges or stolen card numbers. I am certain it will put extra money in the pockets of the credit card companies and certification companies.
Joe, I hear your frustration about developer focus and that's why I launched the Hosted version of BV Commerce this year. It is 100% merchant focused and is an alternative to BV Commerce 5 and the maintenance plan. With the hosted version, we take care of all the technical details and service packs for you.
I'd be happy to discuss your specific situation in more detail via phone or email if you'd like.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Member
Joined: 2/21/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,113
|
I understand completely where you are coming from Marcus, but I'm having serious deja vu of SF6 days -- it was purchase SF7 or you are dead in the water -- no support, no help on forums, no updates, company didn't care about you (I'm not implying that of you, by the way).
If you were to say that BV6 were to available before having to re-purchase the maintenance plan in 12 months, then that would be an incentive -- but you are talking about $1,000 expense for updates and then wait on BV6.
And you are saying that we don't sign up before May 12th, and then if we have an issue with, say, Authorize.net, PayPal, or PCI Compliance in the future, it's going to cost $1,000 to get it fixed (on top of finding a developer to do the work).
This comes on the heels of being "forced" to move to a $500 "maintenance plan" for Shipper -- I say forced because I need that program and the old version won't be supported any longer should there be problems. So now I'm faced with $1,000 extra unplanned for costs. There goes any funds that were slated for improvements by any of the developers here.
Don't get me wrong, the advantages of Shipper 3 are worth it, as I'm sure the advantages of this maintenance plan are as well. I'm fortunate in that our sales are up in this economic situation and will probably plunk down the money.
As for the hosted -- never liked that kind of solution - I've been cared for far too well at Applied Innovations, and having our store on a dedicated server for about the same as I would pay for your hosted solution makes that an easy choice for me.
Joe |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Member
Joined: 4/11/2004(UTC)
Posts: 186
|
birdsafe,
You are being waaaay too nice! They are holding a gun to our head and saying upgrade or else. It's a total money grab and alienates long term customers, like myself. I have been with BV since the beginning (2002/2003) and this burns me up so bad, i cannot even tell you. I can't believe I have to go to everyone of my clients and tell them they will need to pony up $500/year or their site will be rendered useless. I have already begun the search for new software... |
[url=http://www.internetcityusa.com][/url] Jason |
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Member
Joined: 11/5/2003(UTC)
Posts: 1,786
|
Jason,
This is not a "money grab" by any means. I've been providing valuable updates and services for years for free. The cost of doing business is going up for me because of PCI Compliance and other integrations like Google Checkout that require regular updates.
Would you suggest that if my costs go up I should just keep the prices the same and narrow an already slim profit margin in this cut throat ecommerce category? When oil prices go up does your gas station eat the cost?
Your software is not rendered useless. You can continue to maintain and update yourself. Some client do because they have heavily customized stores. However, many of those same clients have already signed up for the maintenance plan because $499 per year is pocket change compared to what it would cost them to provide the updates in house.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Member
Joined: 4/11/2004(UTC)
Posts: 186
|
Marcus,
I understand that you need to pass on the rising cost of business to your customers. That is not what angers me. It makes no sense that a store I purchased 2 or 3 years ago will now suddenly not be able to calulate shipping, or use paypal. Not everyone out there is a developer and can modify code. $500 is a lot of money for the 'little guy' to cough up every year. I guarantee that I will lose clients because of this...
Why can't there be a free patch only for this critical functionality? I can live without the 'nice to haves', new features and the ability to vote for features. The stores I am running now are stable and rocking the boat is only going to create problems.
BTW, does the Maint. Plan need to be purchased for each store or can one purchased Maint. Plan update several BV5 stores? Also, what happens to BV4 stores? Will UPS code need to be modified on those sites as well? |
[url=http://www.internetcityusa.com][/url] Jason |
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Member
Joined: 11/5/2003(UTC)
Posts: 1,786
|
Jason,
I can understand your frustration. Let me explain a little bit more about why I can't just provide patches for critical functionality without features.
BV Commerce 5 customers range from one guy working out of a bedroom to Fortune 500 companies like Chesapeake Energy. The big guys have in house technical people and can afford to maintain their stores, apply patches and customize as needed. The smaller stores don't have those resources.
I introduced the hosted version of the software because the standalone BV Commerce 5 Toolkit version wasn't meeting the needs of smaller merchants effectively. Those smaller stores often can't afford to keep up with service packs.
From my perspective it is nearly impossible to provide excellent service to the small stores because they are all hosted with different companies and have different versions of the software. With a hosted version they are all in a controlled environment which allows me to keep them up to date at an affordable cost.
When those smaller stores grow they can move up to the standalone software which is a migration path that none of the other hosted shopping carts offer.
If I was to provide just "critical" updates to some customers and no features to others I would be forking the code base. Now there are two versions of BV Commerce to maintain which means twice as much testing and it doesn't really save any work.
The other shopping cart vendors in this price range are charging annual maintenance fees now. I know that $499 is high for some merchants and that's why I decided to include Major Version upgrades in the cost of the plan. To the best of my knowledge my competitor's maintenance plans only include service packs, not major version updates. I don't want merchants to feel like they are not getting value for the plan.
The price of BV Commerce 6 will be going up from the current BV Commerce 5 price. I am purposely differentiating the two products into the hosted solution for smaller stores and the toolkit for bigger stores. I can understand how this is frustrating to you and your merchants but I believe this is the best way to provide excellent solutions for both sizes of store.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Member
Joined: 3/3/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,737
|
I paid $1,700.00 for BVC4 in March '06 and waited 9 months for BVC5 (free "upgrade"), and another 6 months to hotfix the crap out of it and get a working website in June '07 (Justin and Everette were saints, even if they caused some of the problems). Not counting hosting, I'm getting my money's worth mostly because of the passage of time and cost amortization. Add another $500.00/yr to my costs? Depends.
It was obvious that buying a store at $499.00 wasn't going to work. At $1,000.00 plus about $500.00/yr for periodic updates the overall cost seems reasonable. But it still depends.....
It's easy to put up with hotfixes and patches to repair the latest update when the update is free. The standard excuse for breaking something usually includes "but it's free". It'll be another whole level of annoyance to pay for updates, find it breaks something, roll back to the previous version and wait for the hotfixes to work their way through the forum.
The money isn't the big thing here. A continuing need to spend time (or pay for someone else to) fix paid improvements will erode customer loyalty especially on sites that are 99% ootb. Many passed that place a while ago.
. |
Optimists invent airplanes,
Pessimists buy parachutes. |
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Member
Joined: 1/3/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,497
|
I'm paying more than this cost per year for my mailserver patches and free upgrades plus the anti-virus subscription. While I don't like added costs, it is part of doing business. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Member
Joined: 10/7/2005(UTC)
Posts: 43
|
It sure seems like this was a well planned scheme. You lower the cost of the shopping cart to 499.00 for what a year? You have a big influx of new customers due to the price of your cart and bam now you want 500.00 out of each cart or else...... I bought an additional cart while the cost was 499 for a future project but now your saying that cart which is not being used now needs to fork out an additional 500.00 per year.
Marcus we all understand the cost of doing busienss, were business owners too. Your timing is crap and you are not being flexible on this May deadline. You need to give us time to digest the unfavorable news you have delivered. Give us more options especially in the case where I bought a new cart for a future project. I cannot justify spending another 500.00 on something I am not using. How about you simply refund me for the cart! |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Member
Joined: 12/23/2003(UTC)
Posts: 909
|
All competitive shopping carts have introduced maintenance plans within the last year. What does BV do to keep a competitive edge? Keep giving everything away for free so we continue to see overdue delivery on support, upgrades and features? Keep giving away everything for free so we see BV6 in 2012?
All of my clients are paying without hesitation. Why would that be? If your sales do not honestly justify the maintenance plan, that's a wrap. Grab a free OS cart, one of which is now selling a supported enterprise version at $8,900. ANNUALLY. Now that's a maintenance fee to really digest.
I'll certainly assume the role of a BV Cheerleader, but if you know my history here, I've had plenty of complaints and bashed the software many times.
I have a biased perspective because I'm on the development side of this business model change. In fact, I've had to introduce quarterly maintenance fees to my client base. The time spent working vs. time billed does not add up. Any accountant would come to that conclusion after reviewing my books.
My clients have all taken it in stride because my daily services produce revenue. If BV isn't producing revenue for you, by all means raise your fists and quote Peter Finch. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Member
Joined: 11/5/2003(UTC)
Posts: 1,786
|
Kastaway,
You're giving me far too much credit. I wish I could say this was a grand scheme to lure people in and then charge more.
Yes, the $499 price was designed to bring in more customers. 1 problem, as I posted on my blog, I cut the price by 50% but only had a 30% increase in new customers. Not such a mastermind move.
I've spoken to a couple of customers who purchased licenses in January and I'm willing to speak with you about your specific situation and see what we can do to make you happy. 804-282-4455
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Member
Joined: 3/3/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,737
|
A new customer will spend $1,000.00 for the license and $500.00/yr for the maintenance plan, assuming no custom alterations/add-ons.
Ammortized:
1 yr: $125/month
2yr: $84/month
3yr: $70/month
<Edit to correct math>
Reasonable if you think about it, if money was the only consideration and you got 3+ yrs use. |
Optimists invent airplanes,
Pessimists buy parachutes. |
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Member
Joined: 10/7/2005(UTC)
Posts: 43
|
I do not see myself going anywhere and plan to pay for the maintenance plan for Kastway Airsoft. Granted no one likes hearing they have to pay more but for my second cart. I purchased just a few days before the price went up, this was a move to save money and have in my back pocket when I start up my second business. I'd like to find a way to retain this cart and not forced to pay 500 yrly until we open shop. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Member
Joined: 11/5/2003(UTC)
Posts: 1,786
|
Thanks Mitch!
Just to be extra fair, assuming you had the maintenance plan for all 3 years the numbers would work out to:
1 yr: $125/month
2yr: $84/month
3yr: $70/month
But, you'd also get full version upgrades during that time. So, the longer you have your store the better that monthly rate gets.
5yr: $58/month
10yr: $49/month
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Member
Joined: 3/3/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,737
|
Heh, yea.... busy day. I've edited to match... |
Optimists invent airplanes,
Pessimists buy parachutes. |
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Member
Joined: 1/30/2008(UTC)
Posts: 215
|
Matt hit it on the head, if your sales don't justify the expense than you already have your answer. Many of us have been through the trenches with other software from php to cfm to .net. One thing never changes - the companies that give away features end up being former companies that gave away features. I think times have changed as software matured. A few years back the features were changing so quickly as the underlying software changed yearly releases were common. Now the software (not just BV) is more mature so the updates are less frequent and major revisions have gone from yearly to every couple of years. We're happy to pay for the plan so long as PCI compliance is rolled out (scam agreed) and the other features people need continue to be added. In the end we'll all have better software come BVC6. PromoManagers
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Member
Joined: 2/21/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,113
|
I have always advocated an ala-carte system -- I have no need for Google Checkout -- it doesn't work when you use more than one "live" shipping method - so why should I pay for it? I'm sure many don't use PayPal. Make the software modular and pay for what you need/want |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Member
Joined: 3/3/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,737
|
Joe, I'm with you on the ala carte feelings. BUT... I think the ala carte nature of this and most complex software has led to a patchwork of sites that is now almost impossible to control. As Marcus has said many times, one patch to fix also breaks.
There are many many features that I don't use like Google Checkout, Paypal, Up-Sells, digital goods, gift certs, inventory, kitting...., etc. Many items on my 'wish-list' I can live without if each is going to cost a month or two's maintenance cost, on average.
No doubt that when my $49.00/month gets spent to improve and stabilize the platform, there will be months that go by when I'll not get ANY benefit because I just won't be able to use a new feature if/as it's offered. I'll assume that security updates will hit two three times a year and with BVC6 due in 12 to 20 months I'm likely to spend $500.00 to $1000.00 to eventually get BVC6 and stay current on security. Will I NEED BVC6???? Can't answer that yet. New features that I can actually use will be a bonus. .... Most of the stuff that's happened between 3.2 (my current) and 5.5 don't affect me one bit.
The decision to make is: Is my money better spent here or somewhere else (where the same plan is due soon or already established). Leaving SF6 was a no-brainer, remember? Tougher decision this time.
Marcus, Assuming you're signing a few hundred (a thousand?) users to the plan, we're not going to be very happy if you don't spend it to OUR benefit. We've been hanging on hoping for the best. Time to make us true believers. |
Optimists invent airplanes,
Pessimists buy parachutes. |
|
|
|
|
|
Rank: Member
Joined: 1/10/2005(UTC)
Posts: 714
Thanks: 14 times
Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
|
Originally Posted by: "Marcus" 
BV Commerce 5 customers range from one guy working out of a bedroom to Fortune 500 companies like Chesapeake Energy. The big guys have in house technical people and can afford to maintain their stores, apply patches and customize as needed. The smaller stores don't have those resources.
I'm one of those guys that works out of a bedroom ;) Marcus, How are the hotfixes / service packs going to be rolled out with the plan? Will features be seperate from hot fixes? I guess this goes along more with the ala carte question. I dont mind paying for the plan for features i dont use, but can those be like "add-ons"?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.